Mr Tsang Ms Eu Record 2010-6-17
TV debate, Aug. Chief Executive Donald Tsang and the Hong Kong Civic Party leader, Audrey Eu Legislative Council debate on political reform for the television, today (17th) afternoon starting at 6:30. They make a brief opening statement, respectively, after each question or answer to the public in advance to collect your questions. The following is the Ta Kung Pao, according to transcripts of the debate press Record:
Tsang:
Members Hong Kong, today's TV debate is only one purpose, because Hong Kong's democratic development has reached a critical moment, I want to make every effort to win political support for the program through 2012. universal suffrage is our common ideals, for the realization of this vision, the first First, I have fought the central timetable for universal suffrage, universal suffrage in 2017 we can the Chief Executive by universal suffrage in 2020 to the Legislative Council. Second, to pave the way for the realization of universal suffrage, universal suffrage in 2012 I proposed, the program is in line with , so that more people interested in politics can be politics. Third, the ten new Legislative Council seats inside and half directly elected by district, the other half are elected by the people directly elected District Council members, and we will not increase the function of the traditional seats is the democratic progress of this program, comply with the law, comply with reality, are also most likely through the Legislative Council (vote).
We have to know that any solution must be to face a a challenge that can not be able to get two-thirds of the Legislative Council in favor of, that is forty votes, otherwise, all is wasted, and eventually standing still, we are now just a few votes, a few votes in our program can, through the Legislative Council, if the program did not pass, the road of democratic development in Hong Kong, following after 2005 because the democrats tied, once again marking time, back and forth for ten years we have wasted time.
public opinion is very clear, there Qicheng half the people do not want to stand still, most people think the Council should adopt the program. Facts have proved that criticism alone, slogan, reject, never, ever be able to promote the development of democracy, if Ms Audrey EU and you fellow travelers to exercise your veto power once again, making the political standing still, the public will be disappointed, you have the need to take responsibility for the veto. I Chengri Democratic lawmakers called for the well-being of Hong Kong people out of bound, take the brave and responsible step to support the political program of 2012, history will prove you the walk was right.
(Moderator: Thank you. Here is Audrey EU)
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, members of the public Hello everybody .
Thank you for the opportunity he and I were the Chief Executive to discuss political reform. this dispute for many years, people wanted to hear tonight is not a slogan-like fatigue bombing, but the answer. What is the Government's program of how to lead us can achieve universal suffrage, I have seen the government ads, trust, a dream come true, in fact, never trust the government trust the people, in particular the Government intended to commend the people of Hong Kong and the Chung-rational and pragmatic, Why (Why) do not trust us to universal suffrage Chief Executive and the Legislative Council do?
Why (why) will be delayed for so long, there is universal suffrage can not give a dream, like a dream only, which is people should have the right to .1993 Director LU Ping in the , as long as two thirds of the members of the Chief Executive agreed that the NPC Standing Committee for the record, because Hong Kong to develop democracy is the autonomy in the matter, the Central would not intervene. However, we have recently seen the original, and these things we talk about the officials of the Liaison Office is the chief executive do? with a 07,08 can be said that universal suffrage, then pushed to 2012, is now saying that election years can be 2017,2020, then we say that if certain? did not answer. So whether the screening of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage? no answer. then Legislative Council election ultimately whether the functional constituencies? are not the answer.
the recent National People's Congress Standing Committee Qiao Xiaoyang, deputy secretary general, said the original definition of universal suffrage can all change, can be full of Chinese style, with each other to meet international standards. the Government took a 2012 program, an increase of five functional groups, did not explain how to cancel, the only deviation from the election and further. the past few days off the area the Chief Executive and senior officials, to having a neighborhood Anson Shatin, she asked the Chief Executive, key anchor Where? Chief Executive that day did not answer her, and today we have an hour, I hope the Chief Executive can look at all the people of Hong Kong TV, and said to us, how about your political reform to achieve universal suffrage, whether the end anchor functional constituencies.
Tsang:
Dr. DeGolyermm I listen that he is a citizen Party to mm his recent survey says that half of the Hong Kong people do not want to Qicheng stand still, people want democracy Liucheng to compromise, to make this program through, which is very clear public decision. I believe that Mr Yu, you really have to explain to people, Why (Why) do you ignore the public opinion?
Audrey EU:
first to clarify, Michael DeGolyer far as I know, he is not a citizen of the party members. you do, we like to plug a number of polls to us. you can see, first of all, Qi Cheng five people who want to step by step, I think He spoke little, and I want to step by step, not standing still. The second question, you see how many people support what your program is less than Qi Cheng V, and to prove that your proposal is not progressive; If not, the Chief Executive, there are at least five people Qicheng support your program, is not the Chief Executive?
Tsang:
speak the same side (which does) have different reasons for the census, the latest mm I do not know that you know, Britain is the most democratic country, it is to issue a statement to say that our program is a good opportunity to achieve a more democratic, especially towards the 2017 general elections in 2020 have a good positive role. Do you understand that?
Audrey EU:
I feel a little strange that the British chief executive has gone too far to beat us. the most critical (important) you have to convince the public, you show off the area for the anchor, I do not know Why , the more you do, fewer and fewer people support you. Chief Executive, I make it clear Why I oppose reason.
Chief Executive election first say, you are now worse than the proposals made in 2005 (Programme), 05 years, you say (EC) 800 to 1600 people, including all District Council members, now, you become a 1200 800, District Council 75 is added.
if we talked about the Legislative Council elections on You added a 5 directly elected seats, but you also also add 5 functional constituency seats. Now the 30 functional constituencies have no way to cancel, you have to Cadogan 5 to farther and farther away from the election. There , do not lie to people, you add the five seats, a non-traditional seats, this is a lie. because, now has a seat elected by the district board, this is the DAB's Ip Kwok-him, you him, not just one, that is, 5 Cadogan, so 400 6 District Council members to the Legislative Council election, then that is an average of 68 candidates for the Legislative Council, which is the smallest (minimum), the smallest, the smallest of the small circles, this would lead to political spoils, is not desirable. Therefore, the Chief Executive, you do not Chengri, I disagree with you is the same as fighting, I am against you, is justified only against.
Chief Executive, you to refuse to set the audience, so I appealed to the public comments and questions to the point to me. This came from one of three students, called the Way of snow, she said she was going to university in the future, she would choose subjects, have to apply for public examination, she did not understand Why such a big issue of political reform, you as the Chief Executive told the public nothing to dip after 2012 (about). you told us to anchor, the route map are not, if we go to the sea intermediate floating rate to fall, if not go to the shore when, counting (how to do)?
Tsang:
you do not believe in black and white, good hard, 2007 mm I thought you were a lawyer, you understand to the National People's Congress decided to put it well clear that we can in 2017 the Chief Executive by universal suffrage in 2020, if the Chief Executive by universal suffrage after the election of the Legislative Council can be, these days it is established, the formal is our goal. < br> Audrey EU:
chief executive, will tell the truth to young people, believe it or not is not the problem, you can count fingers, the Chief Executive election have two opportunities, 2012,2017, the Legislative Council election was three times opportunities, 2012,2016,2020 years, and now you let the line a step 2012, if the election it may return two steps, if, as the Chief Executive, then I do not dump (talk), just dump in 2012, people in the three To know the students are to plan, to have direction, you, as the Chief Executive, points can ear it?
Tsang:
the most important we are now facing the program if the line be in 2012, this just right is a transit point, you can go to the final goal. the most difficult, most conflicts is now a step will not work, simply do not want to go. All the things before you criticize, all preserved, so people think you functional groups, functional seats, there is voter turnout is historically low. but you tell people to listen to, say, this is a successful campaign, you are cheating people, like you point to convince them and lead them towards a genuine democracy and universal suffrage what?
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, 17.1% of the vote is certainly not ideal, but the Chief Executive, you can not underestimate the importance of 50 million people to vote. I remember last time 50 million people took to the streets, the government recovered 23 . Now I also saw yesterday out of Hong Kong University poll, 70% of people asked in 2016 to cancel all of the functional constituencies, 65% ask you to withdraw the scheme. you will not listen to these people do?
Tsang :
the most important, I want to hear candidates who not only listen, or listen to the vote. the most important, I think you cheated this time people, people we really do not believe you will like our point (How) can listen to your words, tell the election. remarks you mentioned just reason, is completely crooked, the words of the National People's Congress, and no answer to my earlier question, you continue to lie to people, no letters to (believe) you.
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, I think you had an answer back, ignore what I say, back an answer out of you. I point-like You totally did not answer that if you cross my reasons bend. I thought you today is to narrow the differences, not the special personal attacks, so I hope you return to this question. HKU poll yesterday, 70% 2016 people want to cancel all of the functional constituencies, 65% ask you to withdraw the scheme. I hope you answer me this question back.
Alfred the problem is a student asked, he said he would like to return to Hong Kong, but Hong Kong collusion with the business sector has been dominated by the incompetence of officials, he felt bleak. He asked, Why (why) since the Government admitted that constituency does not meet the principles of universality and equality, but according to local legislation, Beijing does not require approval have to modify the existing functional constituencies, but not done for so many years. the Chief Executive would like to ask, do not you cover up power?
Tsang:
First of all, we have seen, the Legislative Council itself its tradition, the Hong Kong Legislative Council has a 167-year history, functional constituency seats are also 1 / 4 of a century, if a sudden change such things, you know how many of the difficulties! I just say to you, any changes are need to be 2 / 3 of the Legislative Council support, that is 40 votes. This is the most difficult problem.
we point solution (how) can be the best way to do this we Although the program is to use mm functional constituency seats will be direct elections, directly elected District Council members into the Legislative Council to the inside, so that 60% of the direct component. the traditional function of seats reduced to 40% of the composition, this is better than before the program, so be assured Alfred.
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, if you have the nerve (talk) to us, the existence of functional constituencies 1 / 4 of a century the year 1999, the SAR Government submitted a report to the United Nations, said that the functional group is a transitional arrangement. Originally the design is a gradual, more directly elected seats. if you have the nerve to us, 1 / 4 century, Alfred is someone asking you why you do not cancel ah ?
issues affect the livelihood of the functional constituencies in fact, I think if you listen, I know Tanya (Note: the Legislative Council, the resignation of then select one of five people) who Jikou Ling, I could not finish all speak for an hour. In fact, you themselves are well aware, this will be graded Hong Kong people, the general public, each one vote, the functional constituencies are fine people, some not only one vote, two votes, Human Rights Watch calculated that some people have 41 votes so much. There are laws to allow them to vote-rigging, and you open a number of companies, the industry has nothing to do with you, you can have the votes. it through the voting, the 15 functional constituency members to all 300 million we can get stuck elected by the people directly elected Members. They will benefit the industry, placed in the public interest above the minimum wage rejected like 3 times, if not, we would have passed. Now about the minimum wages, Tommy said, 20 bucks, if not living, I support you go to the government to get subsidies. And your old friend Albert Cheng, who raised a motion in the Legislative Council, we buy a flat foot count the number of surveyors should be based on Institute of uniform standards, but functional constituency against it. Can you explain it to people to listen, Why buy food markets (grocery shopping) should be pulled briefly to see the official scale, such a big thing Why buy property, no legislation regulation?
Tsang:
One thing all of the functional constituencies should not be , there is a backbone of democracy, Cheung Man-kwong are also functional constituency seats. we are not going to take the very survival of the functional constituencies, the program now speak clearly, we have half of the functional constituencies and half of directly elected seats, The most important we need to understand the functional seats, that we speak clearly, speak clearly, Mr Qiao Xiaoyang, the time to really have universal suffrage, universal suffrage for the Legislative Council in 2020, all the seats to be fair, universal and generated. All of our seats now features its history will be completed the task.
our proposed solution to that, we will increase the ten seats in the Legislative Council, five are directly elected and five elected by the directly elected District Council members, This is a democratic progress, we are also closer to universal suffrage, why you so irrational to oppose this proposal? This will be abandoned us another five years.
Audrey EU:
We currently have a Legislative Council Members are elected by the District Council. Now the Chief Executive suggested, is in addition to the one who is now, but also to elect five, this can be said that most small circle (smallest), That is, 68 District Council members can choose a Legislative Council.
Tsang:
you this is misleading the public, you have to speak against the people, these are the District Councils, they represent a lot of people opinion, the district board members, contributed to the Legislative Council, not the traditional, these elected members have supported in the region, but also has the support of Hong Kong.
Audrey EU:
have health, you say you for Hong Kong for a timetable for universal suffrage, but whether the road map does this schedule, with or without a clear definition of universal suffrage?
Tsang:
It is clear that universal suffrage has been recently by the very clear, Mr. Qiao Xiaoyang , there must be universal and equal representation, in fact, is that in other advanced countries. As for the road map, I have already expressed a roadmap, the roadmap is the 2012 program, we make the seats of the Legislative Council more democratic, more close 2017,2020 election year.
Audrey EU:
If the road map, that schedule makes sense. Are you willing to give us a road map?
Tsang:
this roadmap through 2012, the program is to make us closer 2017,2020 election year, this is a good clear road map. Of course, there are some things to be resolved, but through this program, you can solve.
Hong Kong is facing a big choice, a choice that is, can we choose democracy and progress, and recognition of our program in 2012 this is a good, progressive program, let it pass; the second is to mark time , like Mr Yu said, while we wasted five years, and now to lose another ten; well as a second to breathe is a choice, how to win: national win, win in Hong Kong, Democratic win; or, all lose, we all lose, people disappointed. The choice for us is very clear. If we now again a waste of five years, people will really was hard, confidence is gone.
last time in 2005, After our battle, I think I should have known, we paid a high price, we should not do so. Why do not we help each other and how we can be confused with the good? present this program to everyone by 2012, long-term After discussion, it was the sum of the various political groups in particular, I think the most common, I get a few votes of 30 (support), I sent a few votes difference a few votes only. If you can get these tickets, Hong Kong's democracy will real progress.
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, you are not a few bad votes, you have to fight for people's support. You talk about a waste of time, that is you, not people. you think about it, a salesman a date to sell the goods, substandard, the customer is not receiving, how can you say that the customer right? you today this attitude is the ritual. You look at your program out to all the people transfer support has been dropping, that the public know that they know that you are not doing calisthenics, have to move twice (rows), we have to see how you lead us step by step to universal suffrage. You talk about 9 minutes, you have not talked about how to support your program, the point about universal suffrage? not have a letter of the word, not just talk about faith so simple, though I know that you are Catholic, to give us that, 2012 is the case, universal suffrage You have talked about the definition, universal and equal, that everyone has had to vote, but now the functional constituencies are poor, you do not do anything ah.
(Moderator: the problem prior to the public Radio Television Hong Kong by the three-person committee responsible for the selection problem, and draw out the problem ...... after the first question asked was the Chief Executive mm people: Chief Executive, you are the Chief Executive or negotiations? really, two systems have existed in name only.)
Tsang:
We have now to a point in this center has been that Hong Kong's electoral system in 2012, can be more forward, more of a norm set out. now to Hong Kong, Hong Kong people to decide what to do, so we want to negotiate, to discuss the consultation. there on the electoral arrangements in 2012, must people do to get through two thirds of the Legislative Council, this problem can not be rounding, we must do in Hong Kong, the successful implementation of one country and still is.
(Moderator: The second question was asked Ms Eu mm people: I believe you are sincere hope that Hong Kong's democratic political system has improved, the Government's proposal does more democratic than the current system, if the final solution proposed by the Government can not meet your demands, then as voting members, will not be better to die, do not exist to reject the program for the tile, so that democracy no progress? other to reject the program, the you have any plans?)
Audrey EU:
fact, I am definitely not so many years, 2017,2020, the least the Government has a responsibility to tell us that tell the public hearing, such as universal suffrage after the get is true, this must be by universal and equal, must not have functional constituencies. because Experts also told us that this debate for many years, how to change the functional constituencies are not able to meet the universal and equal suffrage change the election, but we once again ask for a commitment letter.
As you say rejected, how? I wonder if you remember the 05 rejected, the Chief Executive a report to the central, there Liucheng public support for universal suffrage, then we have a schedule that can have universal suffrage in 2017,2020. I hope this time also with the Chief Executive Central to explain to people they trust than we have a road map for internal discussion, to achieve really can solve the problem of a roadmap for universal suffrage, universal suffrage.
(Moderator: The following question is to ask the Chief Executive mm public: bow tie, your time to just around the corner, may I ask why you and your team the same day, you keep Jiaoren support, even the support of the public do not know what to support? see you by the so-called, is completely authoritarian, completely without sincerity of the performance of any democracy, bad for your political reform program of garbage must be lying to friends. )
Tsang:
to see the wording of the expression of the whole problem, know that democracy in Hong Kong truly, truly free, to the Chief Executive to ask this question. We have to understand that my colleagues and I explained drop zone We were surrounded by dozens of journalists, this case also we openly talk about the support of our time. In addition, Audrey Eu and their fellow travelers However, significant noise, one on one in disguise We are very difficult to explain the program was, so I select their own methods, like last Sunday, I went to his district lived, and seen some of the old neighborhood, explained by one by one than they listen, what happened, why the program so important, why is so important through the program.
these opportunities we have done, we will certainly try to do as much as possible, I agree we need to explain to people the program, tonight's TV The main goal of the debate, it is necessary so that I can fully explain the benefits of the program, why not through the program, we face the problem What. I believe, I hope, people can just ask questions get answers.
(host : Following this question is asked Ms Eu mm people: you five districts to implement radical Just now the Chief Executive's answer to a previous issue of the audience, said, like the radical aspects of it? Why did you say you are blocking my fellow travelers? I found this program a lot of people disagree with you is a teacher, Wu Meilan teachers, Weng Zhiming teachers, there is a Qi sir (Mr.), the time to Kwun Tong have a beam sir, I do not know the teacher is the General Taoism is not particularly critical thinking, see more transparent, that you no direction of this program, the program is fraught. that Hong Kong people are reasonable, and I is a reasonable man, I asked you to tell us just listen to the Chief Executive, a roadmap for universal suffrage is the ultimate non-functional constituencies, in the middle how, we are fully open, we can dump (discussion).
(host : There are two questions we have invited the public to the prior record, the following members of the public who had asked the Chief Executive mm people: Donald Tsang, this reform package is not passed, you can quit? If you do not quit, you how able to implement your campaign promises, the political reform , December 2007 I received the support of the Central with just Audrey EU legislation does not make clear mm mm set in 2017 with the legislation we can election of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage in 2020 the Legislative Council that we can, these are clearly, is the solemn decision.
as a lawyer, I should not hesitate to Members should not be questioned, as if I were feeling no rule of law. in this regard in 2012, after consultation, the proposed a progressive scheme. My responsibility is based on Now Hong Kong people's views, to find a solution, as supported by the majority of the Legislative Council, my responsibility is like that. Of course, if this time as Ms Audrey EU and other Members of responsibility should, I think Hong Kong people see very clearly.
(Moderator: This question was asked along with Audrey Eu mm people: Will Audrey EU, is not because of you and your so-called Pan Gerakan, hatred against the central government and political reform? If not, why 97 years ago, the British colonial government in Hong Kong's dictatorship has been the appointment system, but also pay tribute to the Hong Kong taxpayer every year, you are even the so-called democrats without the courage to cry, and now you are Chinese masters, you will be vigorously pursued to split and undermine social harmony, what reason do?)
Audrey EU:
Hong Kong is part of China, we do not engage in separatism we do not hate the Central, we strive for in the Basic Law has been committed to our rights, is merely a road map to achieve a non-functional constituency election, and I do not see how hostile the central, this is the central commitment. As to why we do this? believe this is the Hong Kong people want and want to do.
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, I saw your blog, you said 2020, the functional constituency elections mode can not exist, that is, what model exist? you mean do not represent the constituency will continue to exist but with another mode (there is), Can you explain us, your election is a blueprint for how it?
Donald Tsang:
I mean to say, 2020, all members of the Legislative Council elected by a fair and universal principles and to the elected and the selected method will have this conform to international standards meaning, but of course the current functional constituency seats themselves mm this controversial issue in the future there will be no 2020.
Audrey EU:
you do not answer to the problem, and that is what the future model (there)?
had Donald:
We want this program through 2012, we can solve other problems, to do step by step, the issue in 2012 to now to solve the problem after 2012 until 2012 to solve, you now insist that do, 2017,2020, we will not deal in 2012, disguised each lower (give up) for five years, once again lowered to five years, the Hong Kong people can not wait, and 好惨!
Donald Tsang Right:
people afraid of radical, they feel that Hong Kong's political good Do you want to bring Hong Kong more than a completely radical local governance do?
Audrey EU:
I thought today was the Chief Executive inviting me to narrow their differences, that he invited me to I'm radical, the Chief Executive will have to explain to me one to today, I (which side) radical, or unreasonable, I asked the question, you did not answer. I have come today and tell you truth, I has made it clear that no matter how you half-way, in fact, ultimately accountable to (the program), because the number of fingers thanks to a number, people have knowledge, you say to the Chief Executive by universal suffrage two steps, three steps should the Legislative Council by universal suffrage, how do you can be said to great things, you say the next (electoral system) from the next administration to talk about the 2012, 2017, the Chief Executive may have to choose (the Chief Executive Election), he may have a conflict of interest, so you have to people would ask you, your election promises, how do you do?
Tsang:
current (Hong Kong) radical situation, you completely avoid answer this question, we see are, like high-speed rail thing, ( militants) surrounded by the Legislative Council, we are talking of democracy, there is (what kind of) democracy important, but as a democratic culture are equally important, if it continues this way, the MO about democracy, are not even civilized, how to solve it?
people worry about these things now, if you continue to say that a solution to veto it, we (Hong Kong) will be more radical situation more serious, more serious consequences for Hong Kong, (you) how can it take on these responsibilities?
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, you feel the program on behalf of the radical opposition do you? Hong Kong has a lot of people do not support your program, you look at polls, people who support your program less and less, more and more against you more, why? because they understand that I just mentioned, many general education teachers have come out against, so you do not say Ms Eu your fellow travelers, do not discredit other people, fine people eye brow level, eyes that see, he feels you Now give us such a program, your program five years ago, we have rejected, you then make the same five-year program, you failed the first homework assignment failed again, wasting time is the Chief Executive of you not the people of Hong Kong, not a salesman will argue that the customer is not doing a good job of receipt.
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, would like to ask your question mm popularity recently that we collect are made by a teacher He said students can be fined if the non-payment of homework, he said that if the Chief Executive you can not fulfill your campaign promises, he had no way to fine you, Do you think most people support the nomination is supported by this problem, showing that many people feel You do not do your work in this?
Tsang:
I just have said, because in 2007, 2005 (political reform), Ms Audrey EU and you have rejected all of our pan-people program After that, we have determined the representative to the Central and successful fight for a better timetable for universal suffrage, published in December 2007 timetable for universal suffrage, which you can not twist a fait accompli, the other, this 2012 program we are clear, to keep many elements of democracy, but also not to distort, I have just explained, you just use other methods, our program you do not repeat that, just us very little people, the truth is the people who now support this program far more in opposition, asking the Legislative Council through this program are far more than the Legislative Council rejected, you are there with which this opinion poll results. the truth we must face the reality and the reality of the tail (final) are to face the public, as to how to responsibly, of course I want to responsible, I think I fulfilled the responsibility, now you have no obligation, why you do not have to wait to perform more than five years in Hong Kong ?
Audrey EU:
Chief Executive, I have already explained I do not support your proposal, I said ...
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